Features
Headlines
Search
Loading ...
Archives
I find myself just now making sense of the passing of Proposition 8 here in California, an appalling measure that, however naive it may be to admit, I really thought had no chance of passing.
Well, it has. Homosexual couples are banned from exchanging vows like the rest of the country, and beyond rage and outright disgust, I’m left saddened and somewhat unable to fully enjoy Obama’s convincing victory.
What the hell is wrong with this country when one of the most liberal states in the union, a battleground, in fact, for gay rights, passes such a despicable pieces of legislation? But more to the point of our beat here at In Contention, I’m left wondering whether an October release for “Milk” could have made a difference.
A large portion of the film is dedicated to the fight against Proposition 6, a 1978 ballot measure that would have cost homosexuals working as educators their jobs. Their careers were at stake 30 years ago. Yesterday, it was their right to wed — and with wicked political conniving, the proponents of Prop 8 made this year’s fight about school in the end, just like Prop 6. “They’ll teach gay marriage in schools,” ignorant imbeciles would scream. “They’ll tell my son it’s okay for a man to marry a man.” Well, “they” would be right, but that’s beside the point.
Writing in The New York Times over the weekend, Jesse McKinley covered some of this terrain:
In many ways, the battle sparked by this latest proposal echoes the one that inspired Mr. Milk’s most famous crusade.
“It’s surreal,” said Cleve Jones, a veteran civil rights activist who is portrayed by a curly headed Emilie Hirsch in the film. “It’s like there’s a 30-year cycle.”
Call it life imitating “Milk,” or vice versa, but the parallels between the campaign chronicled in the movie and the real-life battle over Proposition 8 are striking. Social conservatives pitted against gay activists? Check. A Republican governor (and former movie star) siding with gay Californians? Check. Close polls, a nationally watched campaign, the potential for heartbreak?
Check, check, check.
But, again, that was the weekend. Now, it’s the day after. And I can’t help but wonder what “Milk” might have meant for today’s cause, if anything, had it landed in the marketplace last month.
Some of the film’s most inspiring and, indeed, captivating moments come during the sequence that details the Prop 6 fight. Consistently, Harvey Milk (Sean Penn’s career-best portrayal) makes the point, to paraphrase, “We have to make them understand that they know us.” That message, I think, might have carried a lot of heft if voters had made it to the polls four weeks later.
But I’m not a studio head and I don’t make these decisions. A studio’s priority is, of course, to shareholders, and “Milk” is likely to make more money in its current release plan than something earlier in the season. But you can’t help but wonder what might have been. And you can’t “give ‘em hope” after the fact.
57 responses so far
1 11-05-2008 at 12:08 pm
Nathaniel R said...
thanks for writing this. i’ve been grappling with my joy at Obama’s win being deadened by this as well.
strange that while voters can vote, at least in part, to end divisionand bring a more inclusive mood into america can also still rule against the rights of a minority.
no matter how far we come it seems that the general populace needs that comfort still of some minority or another to consider “lesser than”
sad that we can’t live up to our country’s ideals of equality
2 11-05-2008 at 12:14 pm
John said...
I doubt that the people who voted yes on Prop 8 would have gone to see “Milk” in the first place, but at least the movie would have added to the dialogue taking place.
Conversely, how will Prop 8’s passage affect the Academy’s response to “Milk”? As strange as it sounds, I think it may help the movie in terms of only increasing sympathy for Harvey Milk and the film’s message.
But, that’s beside the point. Today’s a great day to be an American but a truly awful day to be a Californian.
3 11-05-2008 at 12:19 pm
Kristopher Tapley said...
I agree with the second graph, John.
4 11-05-2008 at 12:19 pm
The InSneider said...
I have to say, I can’t help but agree with you here, Kris. Definitely would’ve opened up the dialogue. It’s fucked up the Prop 8 passed. Fucked. Up.
5 11-05-2008 at 12:28 pm
Björn said...
There’s always hope.
Perhaps “Milk” can give it back to those who seemed to have lost it,
maybe even to some who never had it at all.
6 11-05-2008 at 12:28 pm
tony rock said...
must say im quite shocked it passed. i always thought californians were more liberal than that…
7 11-05-2008 at 1:17 pm
Casey said...
on behalf of open-minded heterosexuals across the country, i would like to apology to the gay community for what i consider to be a travesty and a disgrace to humanity. i cannot fathom the thought that there are still enough people who believe that certain citizens dont deserve the same rights as others to over power the natural rights of humans.
in 10 years same sex marriage will be legal in all 50 states, mark my words. they said there would never be a black president, they were wrong. soon enough the people will wake up
8 11-05-2008 at 1:49 pm
Joel said...
I’ve previously given my thoughts on homosexuality (most of y’all know that I disapprove of it)…but Prop 8 goes too far. I don’t AGREE with same-sex marriage, but I won’t go so far as to interfere with personal choices.
I agree, guys. This is too much.
9 11-05-2008 at 1:58 pm
Jonathan Spuij said...
Next thing you’ll blame the Academy because they snubbed Brokeback Mountain.
10 11-05-2008 at 2:20 pm
Rob said...
Just when you think America is sorting itself, then something like this happens. Why did I believe anything else ?
Somehow, sometimes people just don’t get it. I wonder if it is eductaion or ignorance at least. So a school teaches that its okay to be gay – so what. It’s not like it’s a choice for anyone. Oh dear.
Still baby steps. One day maybe.
11 11-05-2008 at 3:16 pm
Rob Scheer said...
Insneider: As you’re someone who’s proclaimed anyone who gives a shit about politics to be wasting their breath, and has proudly proclaimed that you refuse to vote, I think it’s fair for me to say that you’re not allowed to give your opinion on political matters one way or the other.
12 11-05-2008 at 3:36 pm
Guy Lodge said...
How very, very sad.
I can’t say I think the film would have made a jot of difference to the numbskulls who vote ‘yes’ to something like this. You can’t open the eyes of those who will not see.
13 11-05-2008 at 4:28 pm
McGuff said...
Don’t have anything to add here, except disappointment in the short-sightedness of the California ‘yes’ voters. Absolutely infuriating.
14 11-05-2008 at 4:50 pm
Speaking English said...
Joel, disapproving of homosexuality is disapproving of humanity, love, and life itself.
I don’t want to get into my own views, because I personally see this matter as a lot more ambiguous and less conclusive than most people, but to “disapprove” of two people falling in love because of something as irrelevant as gender is disgraceful to the basic nature of our liberties as conscious human beings.
15 11-05-2008 at 5:03 pm
Joel said...
Speaking English: Wow. You didn’t pay attention to the whole “this is too much” thing did you?
No, I don’t think two people falling in love “because of something as irrelevant as gender” is the issue here. I’m a Christian, trying not to “offend” anyone by bringing up my beliefs.
My personal beliefs have NOTHING to do with the fact that Prop 8 is, as Kris put it, appalling. I don’t like Prop 8 at all. I think it undermines freedoms just as much as you and everyone else on this page are saying. That was my only point.
Plus, disapproving of something is different than not tolerating it. I tolerate homosexuality. I have gay and lesbian friends. They are aware of my opinion on their lifestyle, and they understand (and, obviously, disagree). I disapprove of it, yes, but I’ll be goshdarned if I ever actually speak out against.
Weird for a Christian, huh? We’re not as intolerant as people think.
16 11-05-2008 at 5:26 pm
Mr. 9 said...
You’re unlike most Christians I know, sadly.
17 11-05-2008 at 5:44 pm
Speaking English said...
I’m afraid I don’t understand your mindset one bit. You disapprove of something that’s uncontrollable and totally a part of human nature? Don’t get it sir, sorry.
18 11-05-2008 at 6:02 pm
suzy said...
Very you homos can’t get married!!! You can take religion out of the reasons it’s wrong if you want, but it isn’t NATURAL!! If it were bob and gary could conceive children. But they can’t because it is NOT natural!!! Should tell you right there something is wrong with it. If everyone became a homo, humanity would end.
Think about it!!!!
19 11-05-2008 at 6:03 pm
suzy said...
VERY GLAD!!!
left out glad
20 11-05-2008 at 6:07 pm
Glenn said...
Joel – I don’t believe you for one second. No self-respecting member of the GLBT community would be friends with someone who openly disagrees with their lifestyle.
21 11-05-2008 at 6:13 pm
Casey said...
suzy, im straight. moderate political beliefs. have some liberal views like the ones being stated, but a few conservative ones too. heres one, i like fightin. you deserve an ass kicking. if you were male id be happy to hand it to you myself.
im done. lets get back to movies
22 11-05-2008 at 6:56 pm
Joel said...
Glenn: No self-respecting member of the GLBT community would CARE about someone openly disagree with their lifestyle. Not if they are true friends. I’ve known these people since before they “came out.” They are wonderful, life-loving, gracious people. I love them to death. But they are entirely okay with my viewpoints on homosexuality. We (as in, you know, me and the “lesbos,” as they CALL THEMSELVES proudly) joke and talk about what female celebrities we like and all that jazz. They are open people. They respect me. They respect themselves.
Speaking English: It isn’t that uncontrollable, dude. It is part of human nature, but all of human nature is controllable. Just clearin’ that up.
Mr. 9: I’m sorry to hear that. Hi. I’m Joel. I’m not a normal Christian. Nice to meet you.
suzy: Too far, sister. Sorry. Yes, humanity would end if we all became “homos,” but, uh, get a reality check, please.
Casey: No kicking of the posterior region, please. That won’t be necessary. You’re right about one thing though…
…let’s get back to the movies.
23 11-05-2008 at 7:00 pm
The Z said...
If Prop 8, or what ever it may be called anywhere else, were to get shot down I really though it would be in California. Hopefully those couples already married will get grandfathered in. I guess that’s the best to hope for since the courts won’t be able to do much with a law approved by the voters.
24 11-05-2008 at 7:03 pm
The Z said...
Also – just recently saw “The Life and Times of Harvey Milk” – what an inspirational human being. And what a great choice in Sean Penn to portray him. I can’t wait.
And this just came to me – If “Milk” fails to deliver critically, commerically, Oscarly, and whatever else-ly, how long before “crying over spilt ‘Milk’” starts getting tossed about?
25 11-05-2008 at 7:38 pm
Glenn said...
Joel, I just can’t imagine how anybody who is gay would want to associate with somebody who so openly “disapproves” of the fact that they love somebody of the same gender. Maybe I’m just uptight – I don’t like people saying “that’s so gay” etc – but to “not approve” of homosexuality is as good as being a homophobic. Whether you “tolerate” (ugh, that was probably the worst thing of all) it or not.
But then again, I can’t imagine how you can seemingly disapprove of two men or two women being in love (and, heaven forbid, having sex) and then think prop 8 goes too far.
26 11-05-2008 at 7:49 pm
Mr. 9 said...
Well said, Glenn. I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s like saying abortion is wrong and then not having a problem when your friend has one. Very conflicted.
27 11-05-2008 at 7:53 pm
Mr. 9 said...
Actually, to borrow from Joel, it’s like saying abortion is wrong but since you knew your friend before she had one it’s okay.
28 11-05-2008 at 8:26 pm
Joel said...
I think that Prop 8 goes too far into “let’s-all-restrict-personal-choice” territory. Plus, true friendship goes past personal choice. I have best friends who made terrible choices (in my eyes) but I still think they’re great people. I’m not specifically talking about the lesbian friends of mine. I’m talking about anyone who made immoral or stupid choices. I still love them.
On another note, I don’t like it either when someone says “That’s so gay!” UNLESS it’s like it is with my friends. The exchange between me and one of my lesbian friends recently (on Facebook) went something like this. Me: “You are so gay, [person's name].” Her: “Yupyup!”
I am not one bit hateful toward gay people. I talked with that exact person today. She and I are equally furious about Prop 8, even though it doesn’t actually effect us. The idea is just terrible. Nevertheless, she knows full well that I don’t believe in a law supporting gay marriage either. That should be based on personal choice. I will not interfere with it, nor will I support. Fully neutral, I will be. She doesn’t really think a law supporting gay marriage should exist either. If the state she lives in creates a ban much like California, she’ll either deal with it and just date, or move. “We’ve got options,” she stated.
29 11-05-2008 at 9:16 pm
Patrick said...
Wow . This is getting offensive. I’m outta here.
30 11-05-2008 at 9:28 pm
AJ said...
Well with this, Milk just leapt ahead and is the one to beat this year…
31 11-05-2008 at 10:28 pm
Nicole said...
I think that people should’ve been more educated on the topic more. I know MANY people thought that voting yes on prop 8 was good for the LGBT community. They weren’t aware that voting yes was bad.
32 11-05-2008 at 10:31 pm
Mr. 9 said...
That’s so gay.
33 11-06-2008 at 4:54 am
Nathaniel R said...
the arguments for Prop 8 would be hilarious if they weren’t so hurtful. I got letters from people i knew when we were kids who knew my stance on it saying
“but don’t you think i should be allowed to teach my children what i believe is right and wrong in my own home. And i don’t want them taught gay marriages in school”
both arguments are RIDICULOUS. Nobody (thankfully) is legislating what people should teach their kids within their own home. And since when was marriage of any sort ever TAUGHT in schools. I certainly never had a class on marriage. Not even in college ;)
these arguments are bizarre and totally fear, ignorance and hate based. period.
34 11-06-2008 at 5:39 am
Fei said...
The belief that homosexuality is immoral is, in fact, immoral in itself. People who don’t realize this are ignorant or naive about morality is.
So what is morality? Everyone can agree that it’s about “what’s right and wrong.” But who decides what’s right and wrong, and on what basis? For too many people, their basis of morality is merely what some authority (usually religious) says is right and wrong. These people are robots who should be treated with derision and suspicion. Why? If their morals are dictated by what their authority says, then what if that authority said that slavery is moral?
Most Christians would dispute the idea that God would command or approve of anything that just about everyone would agree is immoral, such as slavery. However, the many verses in the Bible giving guidelines about how to properly conduct slavery show that God does, in fact, approve of slavery. Most sensible people realize that morality has changed over time, which is why slavery is unacceptable today, while it was perfectly acceptable in ancient times. The fact that most Christians also disapprove of slavery today illustrates how influential secular sources of morality have been to their worldview. That means that these same Christians actually don’t need God to tell them what’s right and wrong, rendering God an irrelevant source for morality (except in spiritual matters that have nothing to do with the real world).
So everyone needs a better basis for morality than the word of some dictatorial authority. Again, we return to the question: What’s right and wrong? We can all agree, from personal experience, that suffering is generally a terrible thing. Therefore, we define needless suffering as evil, and any act that leads to it can be defined as morally wrong. So what’s wrong about homosexuality? What’s wrong with two men or two women being in love with each other? Whom does that hurt?
Homosexuality causes suffering for those who believe that it is wrong. Gays who believe that homosexuality is a sin suffer immensely. When a gay person comes out to loved ones who disapprove of homosexuality, those loved ones also suffer. But all of this does not mean that homosexuality is wrong. It only means that the belief that it is wrong, which has no rational basis, is the true cause of suffering and thus the truly immoral thing. Let me reiterate: THE IRRATIONAL BELIEF THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG CAUSES NEEDLESS SUFFERING, WHICH MAKES IT AN IMMORAL AND EVIL BELIEF.
People like Joel need to explain a) why homosexuality is wrong, not just because God says so, b) why a morality dictated by an invisible and possibly nonexistent authority is superior to a reason-based morality, and c) why they reject certain moral beliefs in the Bible (such as slavery being OK) while accepting others (such as homosexuality being sinful).
35 11-06-2008 at 8:12 am
Mr. 9 said...
Touche.
36 11-06-2008 at 8:49 am
Jerome said...
There is an interesting article in the Guardian today suggesting that the high voter turnout from California’s African American community may have been what helped Prop 8 pass. The writer was suggesting that the high number of church going African-Americans and their more conservative views on alternative lifestyles and same-sex marriages may have been what swung it. The Guardian (www.guardian.co.uk) is the UK’s most liberal newspaper, so I seriously doubt this was a “Blame the blacks” attack piece. Is this a valid observation or just a load of old bollocks?
37 11-06-2008 at 9:42 am
Joel said...
Fei: I’ll answer all of your questions, paragraph by paragraph if you don’t mind.
First, I’m going to make myself sound “haughty” and “better than you” really quick, okay? God knows that neither you nor I am perfect, but here’s the thing: Morality IS dictated by God. To put it bluntly and simply, I am right, and you are wrong. If that offends you, deal with it. If that “doesn’t work” for you, I don’t care. The Bible is true no matter what you say or believe. God IS a dictatorial being because what else could He be? Deists believe that God created the world as a clock and left it to run. The heck he did. The deists I know are idiots. That’s not hateful, my friend, it’s true.
But then, you, Fei, are not a deist. You are an agnostic (symbolized by the description of God as “invisible and possibly nonexistent”). And, you are wrong.
Here’s the brutal truth: Homosexuality is wrong. It’s just not physically possible, for one, but it breaks all kinds of Bible laws. You don’t believe in the Bible? Oh, okay. God really couldn’t care less. He’s still in charge of your hardened heart, whether that works for you or not. Sin is sin, whether that works for you or not.
As for slavery, I’ve read a whole lot of the Bible (say 97% and I’m working on the other 3). But nowhere does it condone slavery. I didn’t know that. That’s a very interesting observation, Fei. Interesting…and not true in slightest.
Allright, so, we’ve established your complete and utter incorrectness…let’s use quotes!
“The belief that homosexuality is immoral is, in fact, immoral in itself.” Uh-uh. Take out everything before “homosexuality” and after the first “immoral.” Now you’re on to something. God, OUR CREATOR, should know just a little about his creation, right? Exactly. He loves everyone, even the homosexuals, because he CREATED them. He didn’t have to. But He did. Then we messed it up.
See, a really awful portrait has been painted of the church. We are looked upon as intolerant pigs who hate people who don’t live like us. Well, they are wrong not to live like us, but that’s not reason to hate them. Sadly, that is true of some. But they are not true Christians. They just happen to make a name for themselves and be more outspoken than us ordinary radicals.
I love each of these people on this blog, because God does too. But he’s angry with you, as well. He’s saying, “So, I create you, flood the entire freakin’ world so that the ‘good’ people could live only to have them turn their backs on Me more, shorten the age limit by 800 years, sacrifice My only Son for you (which was really stinkin’ hard to do by the way), and through all of this love you with My very being, and this is the thanks I get? Rejection? Heresy? And then My own creations turn around and toss a little Crusading just because I seemed to need it without asking Me for My opinion? I mean, come on! I still love you guys, but this is getting out of hand. You treat My Book like it was written on Opposite Day and that everything written against homosexuality among other terrible, terrible sins is now okay to do because YOU say so? Nuh-uh. Ain’t gonna happen, people. Sorry. The show’s over. If there’s any good gonna come outta this, it’s that you’ll all get a big slap in the face when Armageddon rolls around. Seriously. Not being able to die while ginormous locusts sting you? Fire and brimstone raining down on your heads? Not even I would go through that and I created locusts, fire, AND brimstone. And then those horsemen and the seven-headed dude that I’m gonna spring on the last of the dissenters? You are all gonna believe in Me after that. I can mess with your heads really well. Just watch.” It’s true, Fei. You’ll be begging for mercy when Judgment Day comes around. I suggest this: repent now. You’ve seriously messed up everything for your life, even if you’ve only lied a few times. That’s all it takes.
Plus, the other sides even worse. You know that Hell is not a place of fire, like everyone says? Think of as one of Jigsaw’s contraptions multiplied by a thousand and for thousands of years. Then imagine that you cannot die (you’ll live for eternity either way). Now imagine something worse. And then worse. Get the picture?
Well, that was interesting.
38 11-06-2008 at 9:47 am
Joel said...
Because I think I ran outta room, lemme say one more thing about Hell for ya, Fei (and everyone else, as well): It’s avoidable. You can just say, “Hey, God, sorry for such-and-such.” Jesus took care of the death part of sin. You just need to confirm that. Read the Bible sometime, my friend. That’ll throw things into perspective for ya.
39 11-06-2008 at 11:48 am
For Real? said...
Wow, at first I thought you were just some senseless homophobe, but now it’s all clear. You’re an absolute f/cking lunatic. Good luck with your crazy evangelical intolerance and your little land of imaginary friends. We prefer to think realistically and what’s right on a MORAL and HUMAN level, not some loony religious dictatorship.
Bye, friend-o.
40 11-06-2008 at 6:30 pm
Fei said...
Joel, I don’t know if you’re even going to be reading this, but perhaps other Christians will get some use out of it.
First of all, I am extremely skeptical of your claim that you have read so much of the Bible. You say that God does not condone slavery? Go read Exod. 21:20-21, which is but one of many examples in which God provides specific guidelines for slavery. On top of that, the Bible (which supposedly contains all of God’s moral rules) does not contain a single condemnation of slavery, yet God condemns such silly, trivial matters as wearing “cloth of two different kinds of thread” (Deut. 22:11). Back in the days of slavery in America, slave owners justified slavery as an important aspect of their religion, and white supremacists such as the KKK continue to use Christian rhetoric to justify their racism.
If your God were real, then he would be a moral monster. This is a being who commanded astonishing atrocities, such as genocide (Deut. 29:17 being only one of many examples) and considers women to be sex objects and servants for men (Deut. 20:13-14 and 21:11-14, among many examples). The Bible says these things plainly and clearly, so how or why would you dispute them, as such an ardent Bible-believer? As you said, read the Bible sometime, my friend. That’ll throw things into perspective for ya.
Faith is not truth or knowledge. Faith is the illusion/delusion of truth and knowledge. It is really nothing more than a synonym for wishful thinking. Your faith makes you absolutely certain that your God is real and that everything that the Bible says is true. But there is just as much proof and compelling arguments for the existence of any number of other deities, all of which you claim to know, with equal certainty, do not exist. Your argument that your god exists presumably consists of the assertion that I cannot prove that your god does not exist. However, you also cannot prove that other gods, such as the Hindu gods, do not exist. You want to avoid hell? Then why not renounce your misguided belief in Jesus as the messiah and convert to Islam (or Judaism)? If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, then why does he allow millions of innocent children in Africa to suffer and die of hunger and disease and war? If God hates homosexuals, then why did he spare the gay district of New Orleans when the rest of the city was destroyed by Katrina and thousands of innocent (and straight) people were killed? If God is the source of morality, then where did he get his morals? If God is perfect (meaning that he lacks nothing), then why would he need or want anything from anybody? If God is so magnificent and transcendent that he defies human understanding and human nature, then why does he have such base human emotions like jealousy and anger?
You answered almost none of my questions in my previous post directly in your rant, even though you disingenuously promised to do so. Here’s one more question for you that I hope that you can answer directly and honestly: As a devout Christian, you believe that the millions of innocent Jews that were slaughtered in the Holocaust were sent straight to hell upon their deaths because they refused to accept Jesus as their savior, correct? If that’s not right, then where did they go? If they were allowed into heaven, then why does anyone have to believe in Jesus, if Jews don’t? And wasn’t the Holocaust God’s will in the first place (i.e. part of his plan)?
41 11-06-2008 at 9:01 pm
Joel said...
Never did I say that those poor Jews refused to accept Jesus. We don’t really know if they did, do we? I mean that seriously. We can never really know.
I think the direct and honest answer here, Fei, is that there is no answer. Yes, God allows bad things to happen, and yes, His Book (or more correctly, the people in it) describes women as whores and such. But the fact is, we don’t know God’s plan. He is the Alpha (beginning), but He is also the Omega (end). His plan was to sacrifice those Jews, but that’s HIS plan. We are not ready to know why this happened, until we reach Heaven.
I am impressed with your questions, Fei. I may have underestimated you and I’m sorry. My rant earlier was simply out of passion (though I stand by most of it). I confess that I cannot answer most of your questions (probably no one can). Yes, Christians DON’T have all the answers about Christianity. Still haven’t wrapped my head around the whole Trinity thing.
In turn, let me ask you a question. In turn you might have one that I can answer, directly and honestly. The question is this (for your blunt, personal opinion, please): What do you think of Christians as people? More specifically, do you find us to be liars or scapegoats or what? And again, be blunt. I’ll answer directly and may just surprise you.
42 11-08-2008 at 1:06 am
Glenn said...
If “we can never really know” then how come you are so sure what happens once somebody dies. You claim all this stuff about hell and how to repent to stop the chance of going there (what a forgiving god, lovely) yet, by your own admission, you don’t know anything of what happens to anybody. And then to top it all you then go and say the Holocaust was his plan. You are a horrible person, Joel. Absolutely horrible.
I suggest you print out this entire blog comment section, Joel, and show it to your gay friends (is one of them Jewish? That’d be a riot). I’m sure they would have a few choice words to say about you then. If I had a friend – and I do have Christian friends – who turned around and said I was going to hell then I wouldn’t ever want to speak them again. I don’t care whether there is a heaven or a hell, but by saying the things you are saying you are saying we are lesser people and aren’t as good as you.
And that condescending tone with which you keep speaking to us with (how you “tolerate” us and “I am impressed with your questions”) is a recurring theme with a lot of the religious fanatics I’ve spoken to over my years.
I still can’t believe anybody would say the Holocaust was justified because of some mystical plan by a man that they were told to believe in (belief in god is not inbuilt, obviously).
Seriously. Utterly absurd.
43 11-08-2008 at 1:47 pm
Joel said...
Well, that’s nice. We’re resorting to name-calling now. Nice, Glenn, nice. You’re a horrible person, too. There, now I’m on your level. Isn’t that what you wanted? Me not to use the whole condescending tone thing, even though you just did. And you wonder why I resorted to a condescending tone.
I’ve tried to explain NONE of us can explain some things, yet you persist by personally attacking me. Let me guess, you’re going to say now that I’m a chicken who can’t take personal attacks. Okay, thought I’d never ACTUALLY do this, but…
You are either being facetious or you really do believe that I’m anti-gay. I’m not. I’m against homosexuality. There’s a difference. I’m not against the people who choose to live that way. I’ve made it clear that I’m against Prop 8. Like an ignoramus, you and everyone else on this blog have attacked the little things I’ve said.
I’m sure that if I showed this to my gay friends, they would be more offended by your attacks than my so-called prejudices. See, offensiveness is worse than opinions to them. They even hate some gay people who can’t take a hit every once in a while.
As for me being a religious fanatic, well, that’s a pretty label, but I’m simply not. They are out there, and are the only people who are really outspoken, so I’m not surprised you’ve talked to them. But there are respectable ones out there. You yourself said that you have Christian friends. So obviously they’re doing something right, to be friends with you. What? That was a personal attack? Oh, well, next time don’t attack me. Then you’ll avoid messages such as this one.
And one more thing: Do not count this as a hateful message. YOU called me horrible, and YOU asked for this. You, my friend, are much more intolerant than I will ever be. In fact, print this out and show it to your Christian friends. Hopefully when you use the phrase “Christian friends” you pay more attention to the second word and not the first.
44 11-08-2008 at 5:14 pm
Glenn said...
YOU JUSTIFIED THE HOLOCAUST!
45 11-09-2008 at 12:02 am
Fei said...
Joel, you still don’t get it. You still refuse to honestly answer my questions. You refuse to honestly think about what I’m saying. Why did I bring up the tragedy of the Holocaust? It’s because this very question—more than any other, in my opinion—should be the deal-breaker regarding the validity of your faith and the character of your god. So let us examine the question in detail. I really don’t want to sound like I’m talking down to you, but you’ve demonstrated that there’s no other way about it.
1) As a Christian, you believe that the only way to salvation is by accepting Jesus into one’s heart, correct?
2) Therefore, anybody who does not accept Jesus as savior will, upon death, be sentenced to an eternal punishment of unimaginable torture, correct? (Your words: “You know that Hell is not a place of fire, like everyone says? Think of as one of Jigsaw’s contraptions multiplied by a thousand and for thousands of years. Then imagine that you cannot die (you’ll live for eternity either way). Now imagine something worse. And then worse.”)
3) Since Jews, by definition, don’t accept Jesus as their savior, they will suffer eternal punishment in hell—according to Christians, like you, correct?
4) Of the millions of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, how many do you HONESTLY think converted to Christianity before they died? (Why would Jews even be thinking about Jesus if they were close to death? At best, they would just be thinking more about their JEWISH faith. Wouldn’t you agree that from the Jewish perspective, Jews believe that those who perished were sent to heaven as martyrs for Judaism?)
5) As if mere genocide were not enough, we now know that the Nazis committed unspeakable atrocities (such as inhuman “medical” experiments) against countless Jews while they were imprisoned in the concentration camps, correct?
6) And you believe that the Jews who suffered such atrocities in life, and who did not convert to Christianity before they died, were then subjected to an eternity of even greater tortures in the afterlife simply because they rejected Jesus, correct?
7) Because your god is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, and just about everything that happens is according to his will and his plan—including whether or not somebody converts to Christianity—then he PURPOSELY created the Holocaust Jews to suffer unspeakable horrors in life and even more unspeakable horrors in the afterlife, correct?
The answers to the questions above CANNOT be, “I don’t know.” If you try to say that, then you are a coward. Those questions are not tough theological questions; they are simple, logical deductions based on the fundamental tenets of your religion. If you are an honest Christian, then the answer to all of the above should be “yes.”
So again I ask you, what happened to the souls of the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust? Did they go to heaven or hell? If they were allowed into heaven, then why? Please keep in mind that if you try to say that those Jews all accepted Jesus and converted to Christianity before they died, then you might as well spit in the face of the next Jew that you see. If you admit that even one innocent Jew did not convert and therefore was sentenced to hell, then you also might as well spit in the face of the next Jew that you see. Either way, you’re saying that God only thinks that Christians are worth saving, not Jews or anyone else, no matter how much they’ve suffered. How insulting and disgusting.
By the way, don’t even attempt the “free will” defense, because it is nonsense. If God were omniscient, then he would know exactly which people would accept Christianity at some point in their lives, as well as which people would never accept Christianity. This must mean that he would be creating souls that he knows (at the outset) will be damned. And if God were omnipotent, then he would be in control of the events that would compel each person to either accept or reject Christianity. So he supposedly already knows all of the people who will ever be damned, before he even creates them, and he will not do anything to change their minds once he creates them. A close real-life analogy would be tossing a person who can’t swim into the sea and blaming him/her for drowning. Quite obviously, that is evil.
And what about the people who are never exposed to the gospel, who are never even presented the opportunity to accept or reject Christianity? Don’t try to tell me that God excuses them—such an idea is not supported by the Bible, so you would be making it up out of thin air.
46 11-09-2008 at 12:02 am
Fei said...
Going back to the Holocaust matter, the implications are few but profound. Either:
1) The Christian god (who is supposed to be a just and loving god in addition to being an almighty one) does not exist. Other gods who are described as having similar qualities don’t exist either. If any gods exist, they are not just and loving and almighty. The Holocaust was a human tragedy caused solely by terribly misguided humans. Or:
2) If the Christian god does exist, he clearly must not be a just and loving god. By definition, a just and loving and almighty god would not create humans only to condemn them to lives of horrible suffering and afterlives of even worse suffering. This god is evil; such a god is not worthy of worship. Or:
3) Maybe the Christian god does exist and tries to be just and loving, but he was powerless to stop the Holocaust. And maybe everything bad that happens in the world is because he is similarly powerless to stop them. In this case, God is impotent and also not worthy of worship. Or:
4) The martyred Jews were allowed into heaven despite rejecting Jesus, making Jesus’s sacrifice almost entirely irrelevant. If someone can be saved without believing in Jesus, then why should anybody believe in Jesus? Or:
5) The martyred Jews were allowed into heaven because Christianity is bogus; Judaism is the true faith.
So which is it? There IS a right answer, and it IS NOT “I don’t know.” Those are pretty much the only logical possibilities. If there are other possibilities, then they are merely combinations of the above. Again, if you cannot pick one of the above, then you are a coward. But I’m not trying to call you names. “Coward” is the objectively correct label for someone who refuses to confront these issues.
Look, the reason why I’m even bothering to debate you is because I hope that you are an intelligent and reasonable person. Since you claim not to be a fundamentalist religious zealot, I hope that you can listen and respond to reason.
47 11-09-2008 at 12:03 am
Fei said...
Joel, I’m also betting that even after I listed some Bible verses for you, you haven’t bothered to (re-)read them. This is because nothing that you wrote in reply had anything to do with the verses that I listed. For one thing, none of the verses that I listed referred to women as “whores.”
“And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.” [Deuteronomy 20:16-18]
In the above quote, God is saying that when he delivers victory to his favored army, he wants the soldiers to go into the city, kill all of the men, and take the women (and children and cattle) for themselves. In modern times, this means that after American forces sacked Baghdad, the troops could’ve gone ahead and murdered all of the Iraqi men and taken the Iraqi women as sex slaves, and God would’ve been fine with it. Do you have a problem that? If you disagree with my interpretation, then what do you think that God actually meant here?
“When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.” [Deuteronomy 21:10-14]
In the above quote, God is saying that if you spot a hot chick among your prisoners of war, you can force her to be your wife (and sex slave, of course), and you can abandon her if you ever get tired of her. The only thing that you can’t do is sell her for money, because you will have already “humbled” her enough (by capturing her in war and forcing her to be your wife). Do you have a problem that? If you disagree with my interpretation, then what do you think that God actually meant here?
As you can see, God thinks that women are to be treated as property by men. Again, these are just two of many examples in the entire Bible.
All the violence and genocide in the Bible are not examples of bad things that God “allowed” to happen. Many of those atrocities were specifically COMMANDED BY GOD HIMSELF, such as the following:
“But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.” [Deuteronomy 20:16-18]
In the above quote, God was upset with several peoples that were followers of different religions, so he ordered their complete destruction (i.e. genocide). Let me remind you that the Nazis were Christians who passionately believed that they were doing God’s work by exterminating the Jews. Given God’s penchant for genocide in the Bible, how do you know that God didn’t really tell Hitler to go on his crusade? If some person today went to India and started killing Hindus en masse, and he claimed that God told him to do it, would you take him at his word, or would you consider him insane and demand that he be locked up for crimes against humanity? If you agree with the latter, then why do you think that all of the genocides in the Bible are OK? If you don’t accept the genocides in the Bible, then why believe in the Bible at all if you’re only going to pick and choose what to believe?
And I noticed that you completely avoided mentioning the slavery issue after I debunked your lies. Does God condone slavery or not? If he DOES NOT condone slavery, then why does he dictate numerous guidelines for it; why does he specifically tell Moses in Exodus, “You may own slaves”; and why does he not condemn it anywhere (while condemning many other things)? If he DOES condone slavery, then do you agree that slavery is moral? If you think that slavery is immoral, then how can you believe that all morality comes from God? As a Christian, what gives you the right to disagree with God about the morality of slavery? Furthermore, if you can disagree with God on one moral issue—e.g. slavery—then why can’t you disagree with him on another one, e.g. homosexuality? And if you can have morality independent of God, then for what reasons would you continue to disagree with my argument on the morality of homosexuality?
Are you too cowardly to answer my questions for real, this time? Again, these are not mind-blowingly difficult questions. In fact, they can be very easy questions. They are only difficult because your religious beliefs make them difficult. If you could consider, even if only as a hypothetical possibility, that Christianity is nothing more than a bunch of delusions and superstitions, then everything starts making sense.
Again: Either God sent the martyred Jews to hell or he sent them to heaven. Either Jesus is necessary for salvation, or he is not. Either God is omnipotent, omniscient, and/or omnibenevolent, or he is feeble. Either God advocates genocide, or he is against it. Either God thinks that women are little more than objects, or he considers them to be full human beings. Either God condones slavery, or he condemns it. Either God’s character, as depicted in the Bible and described by the beliefs of Christians, is completely moral, or it is stained by immorality (i.e. an imperfect morality). Either God is the source of morality, or humans are. Either Christianity is true, or it is a pack of delusions and superstitions. Either the Bible is true, or it is false. And either the Christian god exists, or he is just a myth. Simple questions. Why make them so difficult on yourself?
As to your question about what I think of Christians: I consider them to be regular people. There are good ones and bad ones, crazy ones and relatively sane ones. I don’t hate Christians, any more than any member of any other religion. You speculate that I might think that they are “liars” or “scapegoats,” etc., which tells me that you already have this nasty conception of me. So, you’ve been very guilty of jumping to conclusions, far more than I have been. I attack Christianity, not Christians personally. As a Christian, I’m sure that you’ve heard of (and possibly used) the expression, “Hate the sin, not the sinner.” Because I see religion as a delusion—an ultimately harmful one—the only negative view that I have of Christians in general is that they refuse to honestly examine their faith and are thereby enslaved by their delusions. But nobody’s perfect, not even Jesus. I constantly wrestle with my own demons of irrationality, such as my obsessive-compusive disorder. To hate the religious for their naivete is to hate humanity, and I try to be a humanist.
I feel sorry that you’re even so naive as to think that preaching hellfire and brimstone could possibly move me. Word of advice: Trying to get someone to fear hell doesn’t work if he doesn’t even believe in it in the first place. Maybe you think hard about why you believe in Christianity. Is it because you don’t want to go to hell? I can understand believing in God, but why believe in hell? There’s even less evidence and compelling arguments for the existence of hell; not even all Christians believe in it. Why not believe in reincarnation? Why don’t you believe in some other religion?
Finally, I just wanted to say that although I’ve already expended way more than enough effort here, I’d be happy to debate you anytime, if you want. But be forewarned that I’m already familiar with most of the arguments that you could possibly present, and you don’t seem to be well-versed in apologetics. So you’d better do your homework next time.
48 11-09-2008 at 3:07 am
Glenn said...
Fei, you are a wonder.
49 11-09-2008 at 7:13 am
Joel said...
I’ll do that, Fei.
I’m pressed on time right now, though. I’ll get back with you in a few hours.
And, if you want to know, I have answers (logical this time, don’t worry) that don’t involved personal attacks.
And also, yes, I would be a coward. But you are unclear on a few things that I’ll point out later.
50 11-12-2008 at 10:01 pm
Glenn said...
How a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat is more mysterious than Joel’s disappearance.
51 11-12-2008 at 11:42 pm
Kristopher Tapley said...
No, just a terribly ignorant teenager that probably wasn’t worth the response considering the lessons he’ll (hopefully) learn in life.
Onward.